A Substitute for War

Basketball philosophy

The best starting 5 of all time – my picks

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Chicago Bulls. Michael Jordan 1997

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Since it’s a long summer, I thought I’d use an entry on my current choice for the best starting lineup I can possibly come up with out of all players in history. If you like visiting basketball message boards, this type of exercise is typically our 2nd favorite thing to do after ranking the “All Time List” numerically.

Now, my choices might surprise you. You may have seen a lot of all time starting lineups with simply the best player of all time at each position – A common list has Magic Johnson at PG, Michael Jordan at SG, Larry Bird at SF, Tim Duncan at PF and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar at C. Since there is no way to actually test this, I’m not one to definitively say they’re wrong. But I believe they are. Most players used to having the ball the most on their team offensively, will find themselves far less effective when they have it the 4th or 5th most, roles typically reserved for either spot up shooters or putback scores. The 2011 Heat and their surprisingly stoppable offense were a great example of star redundancy at work. Teams were able to help off whomever of Lebron and Wade didn’t have the ball, bringing those defenders into the paint to guard against the ballhander’s penetration. Ultimately what makes the most effective offenses isn’t just having the most talented on ball players. It’s creating the most efficient shots – Which is a synergy of on ball creation and off ball oppurtunism. If you have only the former, I believe you may have a great offense, but not the best you can make. A little secret us basketball statistical nerds now know is that open 3 shots or put back baskets are often the best shot anyone will take in the game. A JJ Redick being left open from 3 or Tyson Chandler having an open lane to the basket is actually a superior shot by efficiency than a Michael Jordan turnaround midrange jumper or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar skyhook, despite the latter having the noteriety. Naturally stars are often completley responsible for the former oppurtunist points as a part of their value, and unstoppable self created shots like the MJ turnaround or Kareem skyhook often open up these even better shots – But the point remains, creating a team of stars without those oppurtunist shots is robbing your team of efficient shots.

Therefore, here is my all time starting lineup:

The 1st player I take, is Michael Jordan. I consider Jordan the “Greatest of All Time”. He’s the best offensive SG ever, arguably the best defensive SG, and can play both on and off the ball. He’s also the most decorated clutch player in NBA history which is what you want in a hypothetical best ever tournament.

Now that I have Jordan, how do I surround him? I know exactly the PG I want: John Stockton. Stockton is a perfect compliment to Jordan. Like an improved version of Steve Kerr, Stockton shoots one of the best 3P%s in the history of PGs, making him an ideal spot up player beside Jordan and other stars. Stockton spotting up for 3s at well over 40% is arguably the best shot I will have on my team other than open scores at the rim. Furthermore, Stockton is a strong defender with superb hands and ball stealing ability. He can also create offense in the pick and roll on his own if you want, taking Jordan off the ball and creating a more unpredictable offense.

Beside the Stockton, Jordan backcourt, a common choice is to slot Scottie Pippen at SF beside Jordan. I’m not convinced. Despite their legendary success, I do think Jordan and Pippen had redundancies, which partly explains how the Bulls did so well with Jordan’s absence in 94. Like the inverse version of the 2011 Heat, Jordan’s absence allowed Pippen’s impact on the wing to rise, preventing a much larger drop in the standings. More importantly, what I want at SF is another deadly 3pt shooter. Teams with two purely spot up 3pt shooters tend to do very, very well offensively – The floor spacing they bring is incredibly valuable, plus the 3pt shot they give is a very dangerous option anyways. The more dangerous a team’s options on offense, the better they will generally be. If I want a pure 3pt shooter at SF, I can go a few directions. I can go with pure offense in a Glen Rice, Peja Stojakovic, Chris Mullin, Danny Granger, type, I can go with Bruce Bowen who is as strong a defender as you’d want there but who can’t do anything but hit 3s. Or you can go with my choice: Shane Battier. Wait, Shane… Battier? Let me explain. In his best 3pt shooting season he hits at 42% on 4.5 attempts a game, as dangerous a season from beyond the arc as anyong but the Rice and Peja’s for SFs. He’s a great defender with hands like Stockton’s, a smart passer, and extremely willing to be a 5th wheel. Remember, 5th options hardly touch the ball for most than a second. Battier doesn’t have on ball creation abililty, and I don’t want him playing on ball. All I want is the deadly 40-50% 3pt shots, in the few shots a game he gets in this lineup. With Stockton and Battier on the floor, double teaming any of my players is bad news for the opposition since with 1 pass or 2, the ball can find them waiting for an open shot, just as it always seemed to find the 2011 Mavericks’ open shooters.

What about the frontcourt? Clearly, I’m going to need strong interior defense. What I’m thinking of at the C position is someone who can do what Tyson Chandler did on the 2011 Mavericks, but at an even greater level. What I mean is that aside from giving me great defense, someone who can score at an extreme high efficiency whenever I give them clean up baskets at the rim. The best version of Tyson Chandler ever is an obvious name to me: Dwight Howard. I know that I can count on 8-10 FGA a game at an incredible efficiency from Dwight in this game. He already scores at an incredible effiicency, but playing off Jordan? He could shoot 70% from the field. My biggest concerns with him here is he is questionable shooting FTs and is not a great passer, albeit the latter is not a huge issue if he’s solely a finisher here. Is there someone I could plug in the same role with better FTs? Perhaps David Robinson. But I’m wary of Robinson stepping up in a playoff series mentally, and he’s not as ferocious as a pure finisher as Howard. Teams are going to be picking up enough fouls playing a team like this, if they want to intentionally hack just so he’ll hit “only” 50% of free points, they can go ahead. I’ll go with my gut and take Howard in this role over everyone else.

Finally – PF. At this point, I still need someone who can take 2nd option levels of volume as a scorer and create enough to take pressure off Jordan to do so. An obvious choice for a lot of people is Kevin Garnett at PF due to his versatility. Yet when I looked at it, Garnett’s offensive contributions on this team would likely be midrange jumpshots off pick and pop plays. This seems like the weak link among offensive options on the floor behind: Michael Jordan attacking the rim, open Stockton 3, open Battier 3, Howard clean up at the rim. Midrange jumpshots are typically the worst shot in the game, at best you’re looking at 50% FG, which is far below my other options in efficiency. So I began to look for a player who could dominate at the rim and play as more of a hyper efficient oppurtunist than Garnett does. My first thought was Kevin McHale, one of the most efficient interior scorers of all time. Yet McHale has questionable passing and despite having both Jordan and Howard, I would like one more physically dominating player on my defensive rotations. The perfect fit: Karl Malone. Young Karl Malone can finish at the rim almost as well as Dwight Howard can, is a great fit playing off both Jordan and Stockton and can roll off them to the rim, while helping their penetrations by setting great screens. He’s a good enough passer to move the ball outside if defensive attention comes. Mentally he’s also always seemed more of a fit as a 2nd option, so he won’t have a problem differing to the alpha dog Jordan. Defensively, he’s an excellent fit – He doesn’t need to be a shotblocking anchor with Dwight there, just an extremely athletic and large player who can rotate as hard as anyone, and foul and cheapshot as hard as anyone to discourage offensive opponents in a way Dwight is perhaps too nice to.

So recapping, here’s my attempt at making the best starting 5 of all time, with the corresponding seasons I’m taking them in:

PG: John Stockton (1994-1995)

SG: Michael Jordan (1990-1991)

SF: Shane Battier (2006-2007)

PF: Karl Malone (1991-1992)

C: Dwight Howard (2009-2010)

I’ll admit, it’s not the sexiest team you’ve ever seen. But the fundamentals are in play. On offense you can expect a steady stream of the following: Jordan getting to and finishing at the rim (hyper efficient), Malone finishing at the rim (hyper efficient), Howard finishing at the rim (hyper efficient), Stockton open 3 (hyper efficient), Battier open 3 (hyper efficient). That’s a lot of hyper efficiency, which is really what I’m looking for. Frankly, all of those options are basically the most efficient shots you can take on a basketball court. You can’t really beat Jordan, Malone and Howard when they have the ball at the rim or a Stockton and Battier being left open from 3 for points per shot. Ideally, I don’t need to take any other shots than those, but if I do to create shots at the end of the shotclock, I still have Jordan and Karl Malone’s midrange and post games. Those aren’t bad backup plans.

Defensively, I have a physically massive Howard and Malone combo anchoring my interior defense, with the former protecting the rim and the latter stepping out to rotate on the perimeter. I have one of the most explosive perimeter defenders in Jordan and beside him Stockton and Battier who are not as physically imposing but have outstanding defensive instincts. Importantly, I believe this team forces a ton of turnovers as my 3 perimeter players have abnormally phenomenal defensive hands and instincts tipping passes. If my team picks off a pass, I can get transition baskets since Stockton, Jordan and Malone run the break extremely well. Since my team is strong at passing and has a clear set of roles and spacing between Jordan, the shooters and the big man finishers, I believe offensive turnovers should be kept low. Remember, the mid 90s Bulls were one of the greatest “turnover dynasties” ever – having the lowest offensive TOV% in the league during 4 of their 6 titles seasons, and top 4 for the other two. If Jordan could lead that team, hopefully he’d do the same here.

On the boards, I have a very strong rebounding frontcourt with Malone and Howard, and Jordan and Battier are above average and importantly, have a smart nose for the ball. I may not be as good at rebounding as a team who plays Magic, Bird, and a Duncan/Jabbar type frontcourt, but I believe I wouldn’t need it to have the best team.

That’s my team. It’s not the best offensive team you can possibly make, if you want that, substitute in Peja Stojakovic for Shane Battier and Charles Barkley for Karl Malone. It’s not the best defensive team you can make, if you want that, substitute in Gary Payton for John Stockton, Scottie Pippen for Shane Battier, Kevin Garnett for Karl Malone, and Bill Russell for Dwight Howard. But in my mind, it’s the best possible combination based not on noteriety, but my belief of efficiencies and hotspots that truly make the great teams great.

Written by jr.

September 22, 2011 at 4:47 pm

10 Responses

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  1. My Jordan team:

    Jason Kidd (D, 3pt%, passing…low usage)
    Michael Jordan (everything. high usage)
    Shawn Marion (everything. medium usage)
    Dirk Nowitzki (offense from anywhere. Decent rebounding. med/high usage)
    Dikembe Mutombo (dominant D. Rebounding. low usage)

    My Jordan-Stopper team:

    Gary Payton (Everything. High usage)
    Joe Dumars (defense. decent O and 3pt. Medium usage)
    Larry Bird (everything. High usage)
    Dennis Rodman (rebounding. D. low usage)
    Tim Duncan (defense. Rebounding. Post O. Medium usage)


    September 23, 2011 at 12:21 pm

  2. Excellent!

    I wonder if a simulation (Markov-Chain, perhaps?) could model the interactions here discussed in a qualitative way?

    Daniel M (@DSMok1)

    September 27, 2011 at 9:51 am

  3. I dont know man, thanks for writing the list and I like the non conventional thinking. But Pippen was so dominant defensively that I think it makes up for any relative deficiencies he has as a three point shooter. I might take Bird though. Great shooter and actually not a bad team defender, though hes nowhere near the level of Pippen or Battier.

    I’ll take Chris Paul as my point guard. I think he is underrated as far as his place in the history of the game. He will look great pushing the ball with the athletes on my team. He’s as short as I am but he plays surprisingly good defense

    Magic Johnson is worlds better as an offensive player( an insane 61 perc TS), and possibly top five ever regardless of position. But I want someone who can shoot threes and stop penetration

    So we have

    Paul at the one
    Jordan at the two
    so the three…. I talked about Bird and Pippen earlier but I honestly think Lebron may be the best ever in this spot. He tends to dominate the ball, which is a negative on this team, but hes a great athlete to get out on the break, and plays great defense, while shooting (this year) a great percentage on long twos(mediocre on threes unfortunateley)

    I thought about a Dirk Shaq combo I desperately need three point shooting on this team. Though Jordan actually did have a few good years in that regard, it is obviously not his best shot. Lebron is league average and they have similar career percentages, but Jordan actually had the better best 3p shooting years of the two. Paul is my only consistently good 3 point shooter(very good the last two years)

    I would take SHaq to go along with Dirk because that would be an unstoppable offensive combo. You simply cannot double shaq off of Dirk, as Dirk will kill you from outside. But neither of these guys play great defense, and I’m going with a defense first concept.

    I’ll take Garnett as my four. Elite defense and a versatile all around game.

    Olajuwon is my five. Shaq, WIlt, peak Kareem, and Robinson all look better on paper(in the regular season) but Hakeem outplayed every great 5 in the 90s when it counted, and was great on offense and defense. You had to game plan against him like few others. Kareem and Wilt I’m omitting from consideration mostly due to era bias. I’m obviously very pro Hakeem ( and his era) but I think he would out-quick, out-wit, and out-handle(in the post) every other center on the list. Hes also another elite athlete(for a five, not saying Robinson wasn’t also) to go along with Jordan and Lebron. The other two on my team are also possess high level nba athleticism in their own right. Paul is very quick and fast, and though admittedly no John Wall/Derrick Rose/Russel Westbrook(none of these players were anywhere near consideration) in size/speed/leaping ability there’s still not a lot of nba point guards who possess his level of skill/quickness. Garnett has never been the quickest or fastest four, but as a youngster he could jump out of the gym. Even just a couple years ago his amazing ability to get vertical confounded Gasol(When the Celts beat the Lakers in the finals)

    I know I pretty much did the pick the best player strategy, but I really dont think anything could beat my team. Paul is good on D(not Gary Payton good maybe, but still good) and other then him I have elite defenders at every spot. In Paul, Jordan, Garnett, and Olojuwon I have very intense and intelligent competitors who want to win. Lebron may be a knucklehead at times, but hes been clutch before, and I feel like he will be again on my team, not that he really needs to be


    September 28, 2011 at 1:24 am

  4. Appreciate the comments.

    Your team would be as dominant any defensively (I’m really starting to think the gap between Lebron and Pippen defensively is smaller than advertised) but I believe I could gameplan against their offense. I believe Lebron’s offense on this team is the weak link that submarines yours against mine. The problem with Lebron’s offense on this team is he doesn’t know how to create hyperefficient shots off the ball. So when he doesn’t have it, you’re either going to have a Lebron jumpshot which can be hot or cold or hot potato. Now you could have the strategy of making Lebron the main ballhandler and the other guys the floor spacers, but I believe helping off Jordan and Paul hurts but is not devastating without 3pt shooting as good as some of my guys. I also believe you can help off Garnett and Olajuwon to much less harm than helping off Malone and Dwight. If you help off Malone or Dwight you’re looking at a dunk with power that nobody can touch. Olajuwon and Garnett do not have that, instead trading it for shot creating ability and range, but I believe that makes them worse off ball players in this lineup. Overall I believe I can help off Paul more than Stockton, off Lebron more than Battier, and off Garnett/Hakeem more than Malone/Dwight. Doing so may lead to efficient shots for you, but not as hyperefficient as an open Stockton or Battier 3 or Malone and Dwight at the rim shot. I will have a more clogged paint which will also hurt the on ball players, in this case Jordan, Lebron and Paul and possibly Garnett and Hakeem. If I can block the paint more I stop perimeter players from scoring at the rim and gives me smaller space to get my hands in for a steal. I believe my offense will prove superior as a whole pretty easily.

    Now dealing with your defense – It’s pretty scary but a big key is that Lebron will have to wait at the 3pt line making sure Battier doesn’t get an open 3, as does Paul with Stockton respectively. That creates less scary perimeter athleticism to close in on my players and forces Garnett and Olajuwon to both be the main forces helping on Jordan and make sure Malone and Dwight don’t dunk easy scores. My guess is they’re forced to stay back on my bigs, which opens up the game a lot for Jordan to just massacre on the drive. Again, Lebron and Paul would normally be excellent options to rotate on Jordan, but in this case I believe they will be pushed out of the action by my unbelievable 1 and 3 3pt shooters, just as Lebron and Wade had to stay on the 3pt line chasing the Mavs players last June which vastly lowered how scary the Heat’s athletic rotations were


    September 30, 2011 at 3:40 pm

  5. I can follow you for the backcourt, but I don’t like your front court picks. It’s hard for me to understand how Tim Duncan is not included, considering what kind of an impact he could have next to another big center compared to Malone.
    Also, as good as Howard is you might find yourself exposed against a big center.
    Seriously, I’m not sure this team would win against the Lakers team we saw in the ’01 playoffs, with Fisher and Fox filling up just fine the roles you gave Stockton and Battier and Horry historically being able to outplay (or, at least, not be outplayed by) Malone. Then, you have jordon-Howard vs Kobe-Shaq.

    Alternative team:
    – Magic
    – Stockton
    – Bird
    – Duncan
    – Olajuwon
    with the right defender in the backcourt ready to step in, with that kind of inside presence defence should be easy anyway…


    October 13, 2011 at 5:22 am

  6. http://pearlsofmystery.blogspot.com/2011/10/redundancy-of-roles-and-1960s-celtics.html

    Yeah, I took the fundamental perspective shift of qualitative redundancy in this post and applied it to actual, historical-level teams in general. Your post is quite “based” as they say. Really awesome stuff. I can’t believe I missed this when you published it.

    Alex D.

    October 14, 2011 at 3:42 pm

  7. As much as I love your analysis, I can’t really figure out why you wouldn’t want to pick Shaq in your team…
    SG/C duos have proven very successful in the recent years and I don’t see why you would give utilization to Malone over Shaq (that is, unless you believe Howard to be superior to Shaq which, in my view, he has far from proven)

    I agree with the Stockton choice conceptually, even over Kidd. But your choice is affected by (i) the number of open threes he’s gonna get (which is far from evident given the number of ball-hoggers in your team), (ii) a pick-and-roll oriented offense, which is far from the one Jordan evolved in

    Finally, I understand the argument of efficiency and the fact that there are many contributions players make to their teams that aren’t recorded in stats, particularly ppg. But then again, why not include a guy like Rodman who would be perfect in a high-utilization team as 90% of his contributions are without the ball?

    I think Shaq, Rodman, and Jordan would do very well on such team. The SF would have to combine both a good interior finishing (to make up for Rodman’s) and a 3pt range (and LeBron comes to mind, especially given his ability to set-up plays for such a high-utilization team)

    As for the PG, I would pick the most selfless that can be found, and one that can run a very athletic team. Kidd & Magic come to mind but they aren’t very 3pt efficient. I think Nash would be the best choice but his defense is more than questionable… So I’m torn between Stockton and Kidd. I’ll go with the older Kidd in the 2008 or 2009 season who reached 40% 3p, while being extremely selfless (almost as many assists as points, which would be invaluable to this team)

    So all in all:
    PG – Kidd (low U)
    SG – Jordan (high U)
    SF – James (medium U)
    PF – Rodman (low U)
    C – O’Neal (high U)


    March 20, 2012 at 11:43 am

  8. I like your team. It’s a little to far fetched with me though. Instead of Stockton I might take Kidd , magic, or Steve Nash if I want them to dish the ball. If I wanted some scoring point guard, Iverson or Isaiah Thomas. But other scorers so I am going to go with my old favorite player, Steve Nash. He can hit the 3. put any pass anywhere you ask him too. He won 2 mvp awards. Obviously he is good.

    At shooting guard its an obvious answer, with MJ. He is who I want shooting with the game on the line. He is considered the greatest player of all time. Which he is. But a close second is Kobe. You got to pick Jordan though.

    At small forward. Im looking for a person who can play good defense and be superior strong and athletic who can score at will. I have to pick LeBron James. He is going to be as good as Jordan if he ever gets clutch and gets some rings. Shane battier is good but he isn’t nearly as dynamic and strong as LeBron.

    At power forward im going to need a good rebounder who is quick and decent jumper. He needs to have a good IQ. He is one of my favorite players. Im going with Kevin Garnett. I love how he used to play he would be a human highlight reel. His intensity is a huge factor in our game. If I could move an actual center to power forward it would be Dwight Howard and ill explain in a little bit. I love KG. and he is my guy.

    At center. I want a nice tall strong good defender and can play some offense as well. He needs to be an intimidation factor. I think either wilt Kareem or the guy who I pick. Shaq. Back in his prime he was amazing with the Lakers. A dominant force. I wish I could put Howard and Shaq down low together which would equal point guard going to the restroom in the paint when they see those two. But that’s against the rules. The KG Shaq combo is quite deadly because they are both huge rebounders.

    1.steve Nash
    2.michael Jordan
    3.lebron James.
    4.Kevin Garnett

    Tell me what would be wrong with this lineup. Obviously suggest a point guard because Steve Nash does not have the best defense. LeBron is not the best shooter. Kg is very skinny. And Shaq cant make free throws. Or hit a jumper. So give me some comments and be nice.


    March 26, 2012 at 11:35 am

    • Your team should be good. You only need to pick the right plays and/or the right coach. Your concern about Nash’s lack of defense will only be real if you allow the other team to go on isolation on him. Remember that KG and Jordan are 2 great defenders plus you have Shaq to block as well as LBJ. LeBron does not need to be a shooter in your team. Jordan , Garnett and Nash can help spread the floor for you. LeBron (as of now) will ba at his deadliest cutting to the basket and finsihing strong. He does not even need to be the point forward, everyone on your team can pass the rock. Skinny KG? what will you be using him for? What about Shaq? You only show concern here like you would with Nash. If you would allow KG to be on plays where he could be pushed around. Shaq’s free throws on the other hand can’t be addressed but you only need Jordan,LBJ, KG and Nash to bring the ball to O’Neal only when he’s sure to dunk it. If your team does that, Shaq can miss as many free throws and your team will still be dominating. My concern is actually about LBJ, will he allow himself to be a 3rd or even 4th option in this team? Will he leave the point duties to Nash? I don’t want LeBron running the plays when you have Nash and Jordan and even KG on the team. He’s best cutting though the lane from a pass or driving from a screen and dunking on everybody


      April 29, 2012 at 9:59 pm

  9. When it comes to this high level of talent, almost any player you pick can be inserted and still become a very darn good team. I like your point in having some role-players so as not to dilute the ball-hawkers out in your team but, remember, good players know how to play basketball. Remember the dream team? Remember how Michael Jordan was NOT the top scorer on that team? In that essence, I would actually disagree with you picking Battier over Pippen. Why? Because Pippen can score in a lot of other ways, and you have John Stockton. Your reasoning that Pippen and Jordan have redundancies.. well.. that was the point of having them around. The opposing teams have a lot harder time dealing with 2 of the same types of attackers/defenders than with just one. Plus, Pippen can do all things that Battier can and maybe even better (Pippen is not much of a slouch in shooting treys). But the choice is actually dependent on the type of team play you would want , hence, who your coach will be. So if you think your plays will be better off with Battier, then, there really is nothing wrong with that.

    Here is my lineup:

    Jordan – SG : obvious choice. Let’s make an argument. He is very versatile and plays 2-way basketball, at a very high level. Nuff said.

    Larry Bird – F : This guy knows HOW TO PLAY!!! great court vision, great stroke and good size plus superb playmaking abilities (for himself or for teammates) make up for lack of physical prowess.

    Bill Russell – C : Of course some would argue. Here’s mine. A very thourough teammate,classic leader who wants perfection for teamwork. Great defensive who knows the nitty gritty. Plus, the guy knows how to win if you didn’t notice.

    Dennis Rodman – PF : Technically the “small” forward (Bird is 6’10”). Argument: No other player gets so much attention witout being an offensive threat. That’s a psychological advantage from Rodman, he can get into most player’s head and skin while staying cool, defending like a demon and grabbing a lot of rebounds and loose balls. He also has knows how to deliver great outlet passes and an underrated passer overall.

    Manu Ginobili – G : No point guard? With Michael and Larry, this team does not need a point guard, plus, Ginobili can handle the ball and pass fairly well. But why him? well, my response wold be, why not? He knows how to play the game, he has a very unorthodox style which will break other teams defense in guarding more conventional ways of MJ and Bird. He also plays the passing lanes and plays smart defense. With him, the team will not lack size at the backcourt and at the same time get good playmaking and disruptive defense plus gung ho/daredevil drives to the basket. He also shoots a good pctg from 3-point land.

    Jerry Sloan – Coach : Underrated coach perhaps but, his plays and system actually works with my team since they all know how to play ball. Rodman knows exactly when and where to set screens and Russ does too at a lower level than Rodman. That alone makes a very good screen and roll that Sloan likes to do. If anybody thinks that Rodman will not get along with Sloan too much, I’d disagree . Both Rodman and Sloan are tough guys, they both have great work ethic (re: Sloan’s BULLS days) and demands that his players work hard, which Rodman isn’t reluctant to do.


    April 29, 2012 at 9:41 pm

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